I promised myself I wouldn’t get into this. People really seem to get divided over the issue and take it way more personally than I think they should. There have been several posts on both sides of the question that got debated endlessly, but I finally decided that I would throw my two cents in. No wall-o-text, no analogy; just a simple and logical answer.
High End Raiding
If you define “raid viability” as being able to participate in the current tier of PvE content (ICC 10 and 25, and now hard modes): BM hunters can not raid as well as other specs, assuming skill and gear are equal. BM hunters are unable to contribute as much as they could with another spec on a DPS check, which means that they are being carried by players who are willing to play their highest DPS spec. If the carriers are strong enough, this might mean you can see quite a lot of PvE content, however.
DPS is not the only factor in end game content, but all the other factors can be taken care of equally well by all specs, and there will come a point where your (read: everyone’s) DPS is the deciding factor. Festergut is currently this point for most groups.
If you really like BM, be prepared to see a upper limit on how far you will be able to progress. Either you won’t be able to find places in end game raids, or the raid that does accept your choice of spec will hit a wall past which they just can’t, as a group, go. These walls exist for all raids that aren’t farming the heroic Lich King 25, but if you are doing 30% less damage than you could as marks, you are contributing to the positioning of this wall.
PUGs and raid weeklies
If you define “raid viability” as being able to group up and clear any other level of PvE content, then yes. BM is raid viable. For easier instances like 5 mans or any weekly raid quests, the DPS requirements can be easily met by a BM hunter.
Also worth noting- if you are not running with a group of skilled players, a skilled BM hunter can run circles around them. If you are in a pick up group for the weekly, don’t take any “lolBM” from losers who can’t beat you on the charts. The weakest hunter spec played by a good hunter is head and shoulders better than the strongest DK spec played by a drooling faceroller.
Additionally, it’s only a matter of time until everyone, including BM hunters and the drooling facerollers, will be able to contribute the minimum DPS needed to clear ICC. Gear is dead easy to get, and Blizzard will be turning on aspect of easy mode in ICC shortly. After that, all it will take to kill the Lich King will be the ability to stay out of the fire.
Stay out of the fire…most pugs will fail!!! lol
Defile, the pug breaker!
Hehehe… aspect of easy mode. Love it!
Nicely put! I think a lot of the debate surrounding this is the differing experiences everyone has. I’m a BM hunter, but I’m not in a dedicated raiding guild. When I pug raid, whether it be ICC10 or TotGC, I end up tops on meters. It’s easy to see why pro-BM hunters who are in similar situations argue that BM is just as good as SV or MM. However, I would fully expect if I joined a raiding guild with dedicated players, that a SV/MM hunter would outdps me then. The math and theorycrafting all points to this.
Where I think this debate all blows up is that there’s never any proof one way or another. BM hunters like me point out how they top the DPS meters in pug raids, while dedicated raiders point out the math as a counter-argument. And since there are never any BM hunters in dedicated raiding groups, there’s no “hard” evidence of them being 30% below on Recount than a SV/MM hunter.
I raid regularly with my guild, which includes two dedicated MM hunters. One performs well below me on the dps charts, the other usually comes in about even with me. Both outgear me.
I should also mention that I raid Beast Mastery. I have always been BM and always will be BM, despite the hordes of WoW experts who say that BM is not 1337.
sigh, all that means is that the 2 mm specced hunters are failing to pull the dps their gear and spec are capable off, not that bm is comparable.
So you benefit from the MM’s Trueshotaura’s 10%. Without you, the MM will do the same damage. Without them, you will do less. And every melee in the raid, too.
If I had to guess, I’d wager that you might have a skill lead on them. You are a BM hunter blogger, in their defense :P
Nonetheless, I have to say I don’t appreciate being told I’m a burden for my raid, especially when I’m placing in the top dps. =\
Not a burden- if you’re in a raid, you’ve earned your spot. I know I’d take BM hunter who knows how to raid over a rogue with 10,000 DPS on festergut that can’t stay out of the slime on Putricide any day.
Well, regarding proof, in Frostheim’s article in wow.com that set this whole thing off (linked at the top of this post), he provides what I would call reasonable proof.
He takes the top 20 dps reports for hunters of each 3 specs on Marrowgar, Deathwhisper and Festergut from WowMeterOnline and shows that among the top players (that put their logs on WMO), BM underperforms by 20-30%.
Now I’m think that it’s very likely that the top 20 BM hunters on WMO are in serious raiding guilds. So this is an apples to apples comparison.
No it is not likely that the top 20 BM hunters on WMO are in serious raiding guild. Serious raiding guild do not allow BM hunter to raid, they force them to re-spec.
It is becoming the biggest urban legend ever that MM/SV are 30% above BM. This is a typical case where perception is reality and people blindly believe what EJ and Frostheim writes instead than trying for themselves.
I am a BM raider in ICC 25m and on damage meters regularly sit together with other MM/SV hunters on guild raids sometimes a bit higher sometimes a bit lower, usually on PUG VOA 25 i outdps MM/SV hunters by far.
Two night ago i was asked by someone to drop off a VOA25 PUG quick run because of my spec. I challenged him that if my DPS was not up to the raid i would drop off the raid voluntarily, my guild mate that was on the same raid laughed – he knows how BM 100% compares to MM/SV – laughed at my comment as he knew what the outcome of this bet would have been.
I ended up 2nd DPS raid-wide after a rogue at ~8000dps the other 2 MM hunters did not reach 5k.
Who is the parassite ? Me that i play well my spec or the countless MM hunters infesting servers not being able to play their spec ?
The thing is though, as good as you are doing, you could do BETTER if you specced MM/SV. Even though you are outperforming other MM hunters, if you switch to MM (and learned how to play it) with your skill, you would do better numbers than you BM spec.
Because of this, by choosing to stay BM, you’re actually hurting your DPS and thus hurting your raid.
Also, I wanted to say that I do agree with you about those 20 BM hunters. It’s not a reasonable assumption to say they are top end raiding hunters.
Because of the stigma BM hunters have (valid or not) it’s possible NONE of those 20 were in top end raiding guilds. It’s also possible they are, but there’s doubt, and doubt makes bad statistics.
This really needs to be done in person, and probably with bigger numbers for a real conclusive study. You need to actually speak to the players and find out if their DPS is representative of that trees actual high end ability.
Kitt not worry, more people will try BM as times goes by as Blizzard will buff it.
hopefully it will not come out that is was OK already before the buff because it would be hit again with the nerf stick.
Currently on PTR, real life (same char, same equip/gems/ench) i do about 200 dps more (which is negligible) vs the live servers just with the Ferocious inspiration buff
Excellent. Concise and factual with no name-calling or shit-slinging. Very much appreciated. :)
Does this change at all when the new patch (3.3.3? We’re at 3.3.2 at this point) hits with the buff to Ferocious Inspiration?
Ferocious Inspiration: This ability is now an aura and provides 1/2/3% damage to all party or raid members within 100 yards.
Source: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html
no it wont change, ret pallys have been giving this buff the entire time as well
Wrong. Heart of the Crusader provides 3% crit, not 3% damage. This will be a completely unique talent for BM hunters and will stack with everything. It’s also being changed to boost steady shot instead of Arcane. I’ll be very curious to see how this plays out, but I might be changing specs when 3.3.3 comes out.
Incorrect. Ret pallies *also* have Sanctified Retribution, which is the 3% damage increase to anyone affected by any of their auras.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31869
The FI raid buff is a redundant one, alas.
Ugh, completely forgot about that. I can’t remember the last time I was in a raid without a ret pally so the only real buff is to Steady shot while simultaneously removing the buff to Arcane shot. So now BM will be 13% behind MM instead of 14%. Not exactly compelling.
FYI, Arcane mages also have the same redundant buff.
Arcane mages have the 3% damage boost as well.
Check out our buff guide for a breakdown:
http://outdps.com/2010/01/25/buffs-and-debuffs-for-hunters/
Man and here I was all ready to get all big and red and stamp my feet. Then you had to go and stamp the wind out of my sails.
My only point of contention is maintaining 2 separate definitions for “viable.” I think we would see less confusion in the community as a whole.
Anyways, nice concise analysis. :)
I think we agree on “viable”, actually- I feel that “raid” is what needs clarification, in my opinion. It helps clear up the main argument both sides have. People on the BM side call people like Frostheim names because they are speaking from an implicit position of tuning everything they do to min/max their game, and people on the other side call BM hunters names because they assume that they don’t know what they’re doing. The way I see it is that as long as both sides define their assumptions, a lot of arguments can be avoided.
Of course, a good debate is good for the community once in a while :)
If you’re raiding BM, you aren’t doing everything you can to min/max. Simple as that.
That´s obvious, every one knows that and the only point here is one side claims that NOT min/maxing is not acceptable and the other side defends its right to not do it as long as they cannot be claimed responsible for any hindrances to the raid performance as a whole.
Most of the people that writes here and on the other sites are hunters with deep enough knowledge about the state of the hunter class as to know the differences in performance beetween the specs. I´m actually surprised the matter is worth this much arguing… fact is, only the level of progression and “hardcoreness” of a given guild indicates if a given spec is able to raid with them with a given expected performance.
Just my random thoughts!
@h0lydiver
This isn’t entirely correct. BM Raiders are asking to be relieved of their responsibility. They’re asking for acceptance. This is a big difference.
Ask any BM Raiding Hunter if they feel that being prepared, properly geared, and learning the skills at providing the best DPS possible is their responsibility? They’ll all shout out a resounding “HE** YES!!
But ask them if it should be Expected or they should be forced to respecc to achieve that goal? And they’ll all say “HE** NO!!”
The key is managing expectations on both side.
As long as both walk in with the same understanding then this isn’t an issue. But we don’t live in a perfect world and PUGs are ruled by folks that read “Best” or “Highest” and immediately think “Required.”
That is why I and other Hunters get so worked up. I guess it can be boiled down to respecting each other.
(Man this was a lot longer than I thought. Sorry Rip and h0ly)
“Managing expectations on both sides” is what sums it all up imo. It all depends in wether that guild enforces specs or min/maxing in general for its raiders or not. I´ve played hunter since release and also played as BM for long stretches. Just as an example, I´m currently the class officer for hunters in a very slow progressing friendly guild (ICC25 6/12 normal) and would never ever ask any fellow hunter for a respec, so in the event one of them wanted to go BM and did fine with it, well so be it.
But if we speak of hardcore guilds on a rush for kills in which little changes can make or break stuff (and then we also imagine a BM hunter in that spot, which is a long jump in the current context) then it would be no surprise if said BM hunter was asked for a respec in order to push 1000 more dps, and he would have no right to complain about it cause he would surely know the place where he would be at.
Thus, with all due respects to all posters, with many of them knowing a lot more than me about raiding in general, I see this as an “imaginary argument” cause it seems to me like this type of conflicts cannot really arise in the real world (of warcraft). That BM hunter is either:
– A very bad player, so any arguing about it is non-sensical.
– Is a good player in a “normal” guild in which his performance would never be a problem and can even easily be one of the top dpsers in the guild.
No BM hunter will be pushing for world first right now, and any hunter that really wants to get into that level of raiding or the one below that one will naturally drift towards the current dominant spec as a part of his transition from “having fun and trying to be the best player he can” to “trying to get the best performances possible in order to progress through high level content”
That said, I apologize for the wall of text.
@Martbenzak
I don’t think anyone is arguing that point.
The BM players know they’re NOT Min/Maxing fullest.
However, it would be wrong to categorize all BM Hunters as casual slackers. Many are really working hard to make their beloved spec as optimum and competitive as possible.
Do they know the limitations and that in the end an equally skilled player in equal gear running ICC would outDPSthem? (hehe see what I did there?) Yep! Most do. And those that don’t are deluding themselves.
They just don’t like being categorized as slacking or belittled because their view of “raiding” (hmm. maybe that does work Rip) is different than your’s, mine, Rips or even Frost’s. :)
@Rip
That’s an interesting take on the debate. Determining the definition of “Raid” instead of “Viable.” I’ll have to give that one some thought.
Though my initial gut reaction doesn’t agree with this, I’m intrigued enough with the concept to give this some thought.
Im currently BM spec and doing what I consider casual raiding Toc25 n lower. I was an end game raider but do not currently have the time. In all my raids as BM I have only vary rarely been out dps’ed by another spec of equal gear. Also the differance isn’t 30% in max gear it’s 700 dps. Which is less than 10%. I spend whatever free time I have usualy theorycrafting when I’m not playing and it’s more importantly the competance of the player vs the spec for hunters. In total 100% best gear u can have for your spec the differance is more minimum than you think. The only reason there is so much debate is becuase most hunters being that it’s such an easy class to play decently don’t take the time to learn how to play it properly.
@Severus
Not really true. The issue is about equally respecting each other. And the more I think about it, maybe Rip is correct in that we should be focusing our debates around the definition of “Raid.” (Though I’m still out on that one.)
The BM Raider is typically skilled and knows their class well. It’s they have chosen to raid with a limitation.
It is being told that this is “wrong” or that “they don’t know how to play” that sets them off.
Don’t believe me? Talk to a MM raider that plays today that raided as MM in BC. You’ll hear a very similar refrain.
Depends on definition of raider there. I’ve raided with quite a few equally and better geared BM hunters and blew them outa the water on dps. That’s why I say they for the most part don’t put enough into it.
I went back and re-read your original comment.
I’d like to see how you’re calculating such a small margine of DPS difference. To clarify, I’d like to see what I’m doing wrong. Because even when I do the numbers I’m seeing a larger than 700 DPS difference. Now you’re right, it might be that I’m not theorycrafting to the Nth degree. But that’s a pretty small margin and one that should be explored further.
Now back to your second commment.
What you’re highlighting is a difference in what everyone here is calling skill. This is not only the ability to properly execute shot rotations, procs, maintain cooldowns, and pet management. But along with that comes the knowledge of how to do all of that.
Do most players go to this extreme? I don’t think so. But enough of them do or sites like here and other’s wouldn’t exist. ;)
Ha. Welcome to the controversy, Euripedes.
I’d respectfully disagree with an earlier post from Rades, though, who claimed there was no hard evidence for MM/SV’s current supremacy. Top raiders in top guilds as well as theorycrafters are doing dummy tests, mathematical analysis, AND in-raid tests to come to their conclusions. “Facts” in the WoW world are always subject to additional evidence, be it supportive or contradictory, so I’ll agree with you that nothing is incontrovertible. But there does come a point at which we can safely call something factual. It’s not just anecdotes(BM) vs. math(MM/SV).
As the self proclaimed defender of the little guy.
I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that the numbers state the DPS Priorty atm (depending on level, gear, etc..) is:
1. MM
2. SV
3. BM
/shrug
Personally, I totally agree that math & calculations proves all, that’s not what I meant by hard evidence though (poor word choice on my part). I accept that BM is mathematically not as strong as the other two specs, but many diehard BM hunters, bless their hearts, would use the argument “I OutDPS! the other MM/SV hunters when I party with them, so until you prove me wrong by partying with me and outdpsing me, showing me with in-person results and not numbers on a page, I refuse to accept this.”
Of course the problem is that since they are BM, they don’t get invited to top-end raids. And so this in-person comparison never happens, and both sides continue to argue their separate points.
@Rades
I typically attribute that to the “I might be 5’5″ but I can dunk!…(on my son’s Lil Tykes Basketball hoop)” analogy.
Both sides are equally right. To that person and in their world, they’re the big fish and unless you prove otherwise they’re top DPS.
But move them to a different pond? They’ll soon realize there really is a difference.
But it’s equally incorrect to say that they can’t dunk. Because it’s pretty obvious they can. ;) (Okay, that’s a REALLY hokie analogy, but I hope it got the point across.)
So what you’re saying is that if you play anything other than MM your not min/maxing. Play whatever spec you want and enjoy it. End of story. Just don’t expect invitations from top end guilds.
Gah sorry above post was in response to Martbenzak’s post.
@Fumurgler
And I really think everyone is okay with that.
Read the one point everyone seems to agree on:
This getting annoying. Its infecting all the blogs I read. Ppl take it waaay too seriously I think. At the end of the day it is just a game. I think the issue at hand is like Birdfall (Letters from Birdfall Blog) said it some time last year, hardcore players just do not get it. The way I see it, Frostheim is hardcore, while Brig & Euripides are more moderate (although Euripides can be very mean at the auction house :) ). To quote Birdfall:
“The downside to this is that hardcore players often don’t understand why anyone would settle for less than hardcore. The most dismissive hardcores do think everyone else is just settling and assume that people are moderate and casual because they can’t compete at the highest levels. This isn’t necessarily because hardcores are too arrogant to see the truth as much as because they really don’t understand why anyone would play a game and not want to “beat” it.
Hardcores can be hard on the other two types because moderate and casual attitudes frustrate and confuse them. It’s really as simple as that.”
Frostheim will never understand why some ppl “choose” to not top the charts any more that I would ever understand why some ppl take a weekend away from family or a work day off to play a pc/console game. It’s really as simple as that.
I doubt it’s that he doesn’t understand, Yana. Frost has actually gone out of his way to say that BM is viable in raids, point blank. It just isn’t anywhere as good on dps. Though I will admit he has a fun way of inflaming controversy in the way he words it.
No one, to my knowledge, has ever said you shouldn’t play how you want to, nor have they said they you need to switch from BM. The point has always been: if you want to help your raid as much as possible, quit playing BM. And don’t expect to clear the highest content if you do. If you don’t expect to, nor does your raid group, you’re golden. But if a hunter or his raid does expect to clear the highest content, then a BM hunter is being selfish.
So I don’t see this as infecting anything. It’s bloggers admitting the truth about the various specs.
@Arthemystia
I’m sorry but comments such as this that help to fan the flames on this issue.
Really, you can only say BM Hunters are being selfish when there aren’t any other options for their or the raid’s improvement.
I will agree though, if the BM Hunter is truly the cause of the wipe and not just a contributing factor, then yes it would be wrong to insist on going along.
However, I really doubt this is the case. Typically, it’s a laundry list of issues causing the wipe.
And really, let’s put the blame on the shoulders wehre it belongs. The Raid Leader.
Remember it’s the Raid Leader who is responsible for who goes and who doesn’t. It’s their job to make sure that the have enough of each role to be successful.
And for DPS. It’s the RL’s (or the Class Leader) to make sure that the Raid’s Avg. DPS is going to be higher than what’s required.
Maybe I just look at things differently.
I get you Arthem, and your post made tremendous sense until “selfish”. All bloggers, and even most BM agree that MM>SV>>BM.
I am not a BM, I play SV. I do not play even high content, not yet anyway. My main is not geared up yet, nor have I the time to join a raiding guild. But this affects me, and every other hunter out there. Why? because now every time I get in a 5-man/random dungeon/daily/etc. People is demanding I be MM, and maybe they’ll let me in as SV but not BM (and all this is before they actually ask whether or not I am BM). They have no business doing that. Any spec can pull their weight if played properly. But discussions and comments like this (selfish, 360/month, pantless Bob, etc) just encourage everybody out there to demand of anybody to re-spec.
He could have said that BM was the worst aspect to raid with. Or that raiding with BM was inefficient. He, and you, and many others have decided to attack the people playing BM rather than the spec as a riding tool, which should be what is being discussed.
For me, raiding as BM and yet want gear upgrades is a great contradiction (now please lets move from “I as a BM outDPS any MM/SV hunter in pug” because it has the same relevancy as “I top charts on every random heroic run”) On one hand BM is saying “I dont really care doing more damage”. On the other hand, rolling for loot he says “I want to do more damage (but still way less than I could do without this upgrade in different spec)”
I was MM throughout classic WoW, BM throughout BC and back to MM during Wrath (probably around 3.1).
I immediately noticed after the switch to MM that this spec was much, much more fun than BM.
I don’t care for the min/max argument, I don’t care for the casual-vs-hardcore argument, or even the semantic argument of defining “raid viability”.
I just think anyone who thinks BM is fun is weird :-D
ROFL! That’s alright.
Trust me, it’s not the first time I’ve been called “weird.” lol
As we said in my raiding guild when people moved on or stopped raiding “Its you $15 a month, spend it however you want.”
The other side of that was “Its the raid’s $360 a month. Pull your weight.”
IMO min/maxing, is part of pulling your weight when you are in a progession raid guild. If you choose to not min/max then you are putting your preference ahead of 24 other people who are expected to do everything they can to down the next boss.
Now if you are not in that type of guild then we are back to “Its your $15.”
Personally I respecced to BM for guild alt Ulduars, no hardmodes, just to play with a big red rhino on trash and adds. Great fun. The best were the bomb bots around Mimron. MD them to a raid member and then boot the bots 1/2 way to your target.
“Its the raid’s $360 a month. Pull your weight.”
This. If you’re a casual player then do whatever makes you happy. If you’re in a progression guild you have 9 or 24 other people depending on you. Not min/maxing isn’t fair to those other people. I already feel bad enough when I make a mistake in a raid.
This really is NOT a valid argument.
IF I’ve already been accepted into a Raid as BM then you’ve already agreed to the fact I’m not going to be reaching my Class’ Maximum Potential.
Having accepted this limitation into your raid and proceed to constantly wipe. You can’t just point to the BM Hunter and say “HEY! It’s your fault!” just because they’re specced as BM. It was a risk you the raid (all $360 of you) all agreed to.
Now, if it comes back that the RL decides that the BM Hunter must respecc or not be included the BM Hunter has 3 options.
1. Don’t respecc and don’t raid
2. Suck it up and respecc and raid
3. Find another Guild that’s willing to let them Raid.
But please, let’s just stop beating that horse about it’s everyone else’s $360.
I do not understand how the argument of “the raid’s $360” is invalid.
The point I’m trying to make is that each person in a raid should have the same accountability to the raid as a whole to do their best with the best tools that they have. To say otherwise implies that your preference is more important than the raid’s, possible, succes.
Here’s a hypothetical for you.
You are in a raid and you are top DPS, class or spec whatever, do you still flask, use food buff, DPS pots? If yes, why? You are still tops DPS.
If no is it because you feel that you are doing enough already?
Personally I don’t want someone who is “doing enough already” I want some one who wants to do better each time they face a boss. I want someone who pots, flaska, and foods for each attempt.
But thats how I want to spend my $15 when I play.
I have nothing against anyone who chooses to play as BM, there is no stigma as far as I’m concerned. No looking down on a spec choice. What I do look down on is someone feeling entitled to playing with only themselves in mind when in a raid setting.
To be honest this only really matters when a guild is trying new content. I just feel that everyone in that raid has to do the best they can in their role. Otherwise why raid with them.
@Ado re:
“IF I’ve already been accepted into a Raid as BM then you’ve already agreed to the fact I’m not going to be reaching my Class’ Maximum Potential.”
Why argue over a hypothetical situation that simply doesn’t exist? How many guilds have you seen recruiting BM hunters? I’ve looked through the recruitment forums and I have yet to see a single one. Try apping to a progression guild as BM and see what happens.
I think the title of this article is what’s dividing people. BM is raid viable. I’m certain I could switch to BM and still easily clear the first wing of ICC with my guild. On the other hand it is not progression viable where min/maxing is vital.
@Martbenzak re:
I’m more willing to agree to this statement than any of the others. Though I’m not sure the numbers really prove it out.
Honestly, using the word “viable” is
Websters definition of Viable: having a reasonable chance of succeeding.
BM can do enough DPS to succeed.
But can it do enough DPS to guarentee that it’s not a contributing factor?
Nope, that I agree. And in that case it’s not Optimum (the amount or degree of something that is most favorable to some end).
But yes, I can suck it up and begrudgingly state it’s not “progression viable” where min/maxing to the fullest. :)
“BM can do enough DPS to succeed.”
BM can do enough dps to succeed in most content. But go watch the video of Exodus (#5 guild in the world) vs Festergut hard mode and tell me BM can do enough dps for that fight. The minimum average dps to down that in 25 is over 10k. They actually downed him after the enrage with most of the raid dead. A few hundred dps less and they would have wiped.
From what I can see it’s
Based on all the available Successful Festergut (25man Hardmode) logs at WoW Meter Online
Average Raid DPS: 176,054.85
Minimum Required Average Player DPS: 7042.19
(I’m pretty sure these are the same numbers that Frost posted.)
So can you please tell me why it would be REQUIRED for every player to pull over 10k?
@Brigwyn
“Hmm. Not meaning to sound at all disrespectful, but seems wrong to blame me for you’re failure to know what was the capability of your raid vs. what was required.”
This is an interesting point as in a progression fight that a guild has not downed before how does a raid leader know the composition of the raid required to do it? It can take trial and error for fights that are close calls. In a situation like that regardless of class I feel, my opinion, that its each player’s resonsibility to min/max.
“I might not be able to choose HOW you play. But I do get to choose with whom I play.
I’m sure we’ll never agree on this point. All I can do is hope you take a step back and re-examine the logic. And if you still feel I’m wrong, please help me understand where. I’m not unreasonable, just don’t feel it’s a real argument in the debate.”
I don’t think I tried to tell people how to play, I tried to explain how I like to play and what type of people I like to play with.
I just tend to think that the type of player that clears new content at a rapid to good pace is the type of player who min/maxes and expects the same from all raid members. It not the DPS of BM that keeps it out of high end guilds and raids, its that there is something that allows the player to contribute more to the raid in the other trees.
I agree it’s every players responsibility to Min/Max. But it’s the Raid Leader’s responsibility to pick who gets to goes or not.
That being the case, IF a RL decides that the BM Hunter can go, then it’s still the RL’s issue not the Hunter. After the wipe it can be re-evaluated.
However absolving the RL of that responsibility isn’t the correct answer.
It’s their responsibility to determine what is required. IF they feel that the Maximum DPS of each spec is required then okay. And if that’s what it means to be a “Competitive Raider” again, okay. No one is arguing that point.
What is being argued is the fact “Competive Raider” types insisting that “Non-Competitive Raiders” must play like they are. That’s why you get so much angst and pushback. :)
Can you see though by saying, “It’s not just your $15/mo it’s $360/mo” how that’s exactly what you’re saying.
To me, and I feel to many others, they read that as, “Because you raid with me, I have the right to tell you how to play.”
I am glad though to hear that we agree. It’s that you prefer to play with people who would rather min/max all the way and don’t require other people to do the same. :)
I’m sorry but I don’t think I understood this right.
Here’s the literal “message” I got from that statement.
“It’s not that BM cannot do enough DPS, but that Marks and Survival does more DPS.”
Is that correct?
If so, then we’re both saying the same thing.
BM is viable but Marks and SV are more optimum. :)
@Brigwyn
You’re forgetting healers and tanks. If you figure the 2 tanks are doing 4k each, the 17 dps need to do 168k. That’s 9.9k average.
I just looked at wowmeters and the lowest successful raid dps on that fight was 168,704. The tanks did a combined 9.1kdps which means everyone else averaged 9.4k. I should also mention they went 10 seconds past the enrage and were likely successful only because of dots after most of the raid died. Not exactly a guaranteed way to down a boss.
Looking at the fight from a strictly math perspective, he has 52.29M health. To beat the enrage you need 174,300dps. You can figure it any way you want but the reality is you need very close to 10k for that fight.
I’m sorry your numbers don’t add up. This would only be the case if you were trying to do ICC with 17 players not 25.
If you want to comb through all the logs and isolate just the DPS classes then determine the average based on that. Then yes, I concur that would be an even more accurate analysis.
However, if you base it off of the entire raid, this is how your numbers add up:
Proposed Scenerio
Required DPS: 174,300dps
Proposed Req. Individual Avg. DPS: 10,253
Actual Total DPS (25 players): 256,325
If you’re going to use averages, then you need to define your population. I had stated that using 66 Successful 25 Man Hard Modes that the:
Average Raid DPS was: 176,054.85
Average Player DPS: 7042.19
Yes, this means you probably have Tanks and Healers below and probably an equal number of players above. (Bellcurve anyone?)
This will mean that there is a majority of players that are right around 7,043 DPS.
But hey! Don’t take my word on it. It’s close to the same number Frostheim gave me. (Actual number provided was 7,600 DPS)
Either way, unless someone actually combs through all the parses or Blizzard publishes some number, we’ll have to agree to disagree I guess.
Do you play WoW Brygwyn? Do you comprehend the 3 roles in each raid? I don’t care what number Frostheim gave you, its wrong. Yes the average player dps is a little over 7k. Unfortunately healers heal, they don’t dps. Does that make sense to you? The average requirement for a dps player (which is the role a hunter fills) is just shy of 10k. If you want continue wasting your time arguing semantics go ahead. I’ve done the math and I know I’m right so this is the end of the discussion as far as I’m concerned.
@Martbenzak
I’ll let Rip or someone else answer that one. :)
Hmm. I dunno this is a hard one….
Tank stand and whack on the bosses ankles until they get mad and try to squish them.
Healer’s wave their arms like they just don’t care. (But the really do or that would be cruel.)
DPS.. now what does that stand for again?? Oh yeah.. We’re the guys that point and go *BOOM* right?
(Sorry for the snarkiness Rip but seriously he deserved that one.)
To answer your question. Pretty much everyone will be doing some DPS. How much and when? That’s a different question. Because, the range goes from minimal to a ton. That’s why there’s an average.
If you need more proof look at the parse you pointed out. 23:25 people contributed DPS.
The Range of DPS was:
Min: 8 DPS
Max: 11,498 DPS
That alone invalidates your argument. But let’s see how far off the average my calculations are.
Total DPS was: 168,694
Avg DPS w/ 23 Players: 7334.52
Hmm.. Seems that Frost and I are a lot more accurate than you my friend.
We only had as +/- 4% error margin. What’s yours?
I will grant you that this is only one case. That’s why I broadened my sample to included 66 reports and just averaged the entire raid.
And if you want to say that the +/- 4% could cause a wipe. I’ll maybe even give you that. But that 4% could probably be made up a lot more than the +33% you’re requiring.
Keep it civil. Talk about the issue, don’t attack the person.
I know I shouldn’t spend any more time on this, but it bothers me that you’re trying to manipulate the math to fit some preconceived notion you have that BM is a viable spec for end game progression.
Nobody considers healers when calculating average dps requirements. The combined dps for all 6 healers in that fight was 171. So let’s do some more math.
25 players – 6 healers = 19 players
168,694 – 171 = 168,523
That means the other 19 players need to do 168,694 dps. Now we look at tanks. In that fight they did a combined 9,171 dps
19 players – 2 tanks = 17 players
168,523 – 9,171 = 159,352
159,352 / 17 = 9373
I would also like to point out that they went 10 seconds past the enrage to get the kill. My original math was based on killing him at the enrage. Does this make more sense to you?
And as a final note, the 7,600 dps number you quote from Frostheim is for regular Festergut. I specifically said hard mode. The extra 12M health he has in hard mode makes a big difference in the dps requirements.
First I owe you and Frostheim an apology. You’re right the 7,600 DPS is based on nomal. I should have made sure of that before posting. And yes, you’re correct that will increase the DPS requirements. Again I plead mea culpa.
I also want to clear up something. I’m arguing about people claiming that the BM spec isn’t Viable. I’m stating that it’s viable just not Optimum.
Now, if we all can agree that a DPS player should be within a reasonable +/- % of Avg DPS to be considered Viable. AND if the BM spec cannot pull those numbers, then you’ll hear me ranting and raving all over the place that they need to do something for BM hunters.
Something meaning either declare that their intentions are for it not to raid or state that they feel it can raid (i.e. viable) but it will underperfrom other DPS Specs and Classes.
Trust me when I say that I’m battling not for me, but the Hunter community. That’s what has been my mission since starting The Hunting Lodge 2yrs ago. That was in response to players making similar comments about Marks raiders without ever proving it but only claiming b/c Marks underperformed BM and the lone SV raider.
So I’m not out to prove some objective for me. If I’m wrong, I’ll be the first to write and announce it on my blog, my podcast and to the #Warcraft and #WoW Twitteratti. (And trust me Rip will make sure I do it. lol)
Now back to your numbers. It’s not that I don’t understand. It’s that we can’t just make assumptions anymore. We have hard data, let’s use it.
I’m all for using the formula
If it has actual/verifable numbers and not based on assumptions.
So it’s not understanding. It’s acceptance of hard data vs. assumptions or anecdotal.
And don’t worry. I hold the other side just as accountable. :)
Hi, fellowship hunters.
I just simply want to say that almost all numbers are based on maths or theorycrafting, and those numbers are not 100% acurate on BM, because modeling difficulties.
And then, because modeling theorycrafting and also ‘mouth to mouth’ information, all our community it’s feeling BM are not viable.
But I confirmed many times, modelling through spreadsheets is not allways acurate. Managing rotation, buffs, cooldowns, and so on, it’s a big improvement.
On the other side, there is a lot of combatlogs that show number son Hunters specces in MM, SV at high level, but I don’t see same equipment levels with BM raiders so far. Cannot be easily compared.
What I want to say, is that everything is relative.
You cannot compare data on theorycrafting, and combatlogs because so many variations.
As many partners, I raid ICC10 and ICC25 PUG with BM Spec, and I’m topping DPS charts.
The question is? I do the same DPS if compete with Top End Gear MM or SV? I don’t exactly know, but I’m feeling YES! There is very few hunters on my server and at each server who can actually obtain BiS Gear.
Then, for average level, and even End Level, my conclussion is that BM is performing very well (better in ICC than Ulduar).
For Top-End Level (2-3 guilds at each server), probably not, but I don’t think 10% difference.
At least discussion on this thread it seems good for hunter community, different in many flame post I’ve read.
See you in WoW.
[…] of negativity aimed at BM hunters. WoW.com’s Scatter Shot column had a post bad mouthing us. OutDPS had a follow up post on us also. While it wasn’t as blunt, it wasn’t very encouraging […]
Aside from the debatable conclusion that raiding as BM is irresponsible (depends how hard core your guild is), I’m concerned that everyone bought the “BM is -30% DPS” bit, hook line and sinker. The data from the top 20 hunters of each spec is skewed, since the top BM hunters are likely to be less hard-core and less geared.
I just put together a spreadsheet version for Frost and everyone to take a look at. I used Frost’s current gear and MM spec, and then switched his talents, glyphs, and Pet talents over to my BM spec, without regemming or changing anything else. The BM spec was behind by 9%, not 30%. We could probably narrow that gap a little more by regemming, etc. Skilled BM DPS is also boosted greatly by syncing major cooldowns with Bestial Wrath, which might narrow that gap yet a little more compared to what the spreadsheet shows. I’m aware that spreadsheets are an imperfect tool, but they’re not as consistently skewed against BM as the top 20 numbers are likely to be. This data is as valid as what Frost posted, if not more.
Take a look at the spreadsheet, I made it public. On Femaledwarf.com, go to Public settings, look up Frostheim MM, and Frostheim BM, and compare.
Let me know what you think.
I sent you an email, but I’d love to dig deeper on this. I’ve been taking this at face value assuming someone else had done the work. I am fairly sure that we agree that BM is behind, but I’d love to find out how far behind.
[…] Re: BM “buff”: Meh. Far too little, far too late. MM is tops, SV is 5-10% behind, BM is 25-30% behind. This puny “buff” will not change much, if anything. I was going to delve into the “Is BM raid-viable” debate, but I don’t have anything to add to the debate since Euripides said was what I would have said. […]
http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t42519-best_possible_dps_shandaras_wotlk_spreadsheet/
In best possible gear BM is 100dps behind SV, while MM is 1500 dps ahead of both, ~13.5k vs. ~15k dps. It’s not relevant for most of us, but at least BM is raid viable :P
[…] game I love, in a way I love, with people I love. Unfortunately, it also means I get picked on. The growing mindset of “min/max only” means that BM has become the current laughing stock of the hunter […]